Tag Archives: Yamaha P-525

Yamaha announce the Clavinova CLP-800 series

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Yamaha have announced the much-anticipated CLP-800 series Clavinova digital pianos.

Personally, I was hoping for a significant bump over the CLP-785, the main reference point for this post. The CLP-785 — and now the CLP-885 — are the flagship “spinet” models. Although I enjoy my CSP-170, my dealer offers an attractive trade-in, trade-up plan which I would exercise given the right motivation. After a quick glance through the Owner’s Manual and Data List, my ardor cooled, sad to say.

Yamaha CLP-845 digital piano

The user interface (i.e., front panel and key functions) and choice of keybed (e.g., GrandTouch and GrandTouch-S) remain largely the same. The piano engine features the same capabilities as the CLP-700 series:

Secondary voices and the XG (GS, GM2) sound set remain the same. Please see the CLP-800 series comparison table as lower-end models may elide specific features and voices.

The CFX Grand and Bösendorfer are the featured pianos, and include Binaural Sampling. The CLP-800 series adds two new acoustic piano voices: Chill Out Piano and Lo-Fi Piano. The same Fortepianos are offered: Scarlatti, Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin Pianos. All other secondary voices are the same in the CLP-800 series. No big upgrades.

The classical and lesson song lists and rhythm list are the same.

The CLP-800 series Owner’s Manual has many revisions for readability. The different organization makes it difficult to make an exact features by feature comparison between the series. I haven’t spotted any gotta-have new features.

Yamaha have made significant changes in the built-in sound system(s):

Component      CLP-885                  CLP-785
-------------  ------------------------  ------------------------
Amplifiers     (45 W + 30 W + 40 W) × 2  (50 W + 50 W + 50 W) × 2

Speakers       (16 cm with diffuser +    (16 cm + 
               8 cm with diffuser +      8 cm + 
               2.5 cm (dome) with        2.5 cm (dome) +
               Bidirectional Horn) × 2,  transducer) × 2,
               Spruce Cone Speaker       Spruce Cone Speaker

You will find similar changes in spec for other models, should you look at the CLP-800 series comparison chart.

Yamaha have given the DSP effect types a modest boost by adding “Effect types used for a specific Voice”. These effect types are:

    VCM EQ 501             Virtual Circuit Modeling (VCM) vintage EQ
    Comp Distortion        Compressor stage followed by distortion
    Vintage Phaser Stereo  VCM analog vintage phaser
    Stereo Overdrive       Stereo overdrive distortion
    Damper Resonance       Simulates grand piano damper resonance
    Hall 5                 REV-X hall reverb

Yamaha arranger and synth enthusiasts will recognize these effect types. They are DSP algorithms that are typically applied to electric piano and other keyboard voices.

Initial Reaction

My initial reaction is “Big-whoop”. [“Disappointment” for those of you who are not familiar with American sarcasm.]

The big functional change appears to be the use of “diffusers” in the built-in sound system. The CLP-800 Web page has a big chart comparing sound system components. The chart made me feel like I was buying a PA system, not a piano. Yamaha need to find a different way to promote this technology — something to make the technology approachable and cuddly to the average customer. Way too techie!

Frankly, I’m left cold. Since I’m happy with my CSP-170, I cannot find a compelling reason to upgrade to the CLP-800 product line (or the CLP-885, in particular). Guess that trade-up option is going to go unexercised…

Why the underwhelming Clavinova Series 800 update?

We know — from Yamaha’s quarterly call with analysts and investors — that the bottom has fallen out of the world-wide market for home digital pianos. China, in particular, is slow. Possibly, Yamaha did not feel the need or want to drive the home digital piano market too hard at this point in time. Perhaps they are saving bigger updates for the future when the market is more favorable?

This doesn’t mean that the CLP-800 series are bad pianos. I liked the Yamaha CLP-785 very much. As far as I’m concerned, personally, CLP-885 doesn’t give me a compelling reason to upgrade.

Technical footnote

The CLP-700 and CLP-800 series generate high resolution velocity and acceleration data with each MIDI note ON message. Two MIDI continuous controller (CC) messages are generated:

    CC#19    Key acceleration
    CC#88    High-resolution velocity prefix

By “prefix”, I suspect Yamaha mean the high order byte of an extended velocity data value. If you intend to use a “Grand Expression” digital piano with a personal computer-based software instrument (e.g., Modartt Pianoteq, Arturia Piano V, etc.), you will need to filter out or map these “extra” MIDI messages. Check the MIDI Implementation Chart for your model and software instrument (VST).

Copyright © 2024 Paul J. Drongowski

Potential Yamaha P-525 gotcha!

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A few recent posts on the Piano World Forum brought a potential Yamaha P-525 issue to my attention. I like the upper-end P-series models, notably the now discontinued P-515 and the P-525. Both models embody good value and sound.

The P-525 improves on the P-515 by adding Grand Expression Modeling (GME). The GME piano engine responds to nuanced playing gestures. That’s a win, in my opinion.

Folks using the P-525 as a piano-action controller have noted two new MIDI continuous controller messages:

    CC#19  Key Acceleration
    CC#88  Expand Velocity

These messages are produced by the Grand Expression Modeling engine. Poly Aftertouch, key acceleration and expand velocity — whatever that is — are sent with every note ON.

That behavior may seems like a desirable feature until you try to drive a piano software instrument like Arturia Piano V (as cited in a Piano World Forum post). These continuous controller messages would also get in the way when using the P-525 as a “bottom” keyboard driving a synth as one might do in a pop/rock gig situation. The latter use-case is what the P-series is for, after all.

Harrumph! As far as I know, there isn’t a way to turn off these messages, sending only MIDI Note ON and Note OFF. Yamaha need to fix this. Until they do, I must issue a strong caution about using the Yamaha P-525 as a piano-action controller.

The P-525 Piano Room implements a Grand Expression parameter. In addition to the Dynamic and Static settings, maybe implement OFF?

Buyer beware! I dare say, this may be an issue for anyone purchasing a Grand Expression model with the intention of driving a piano software instrument (VST). Look before you leap — you may need to filter or remap these extra messages yourself!

Copyright © 2024 Paul J. Drongowski

New year, new piano

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Happy New Year!

It’s been a pleasure to ring in the new year with a Yamaha CSP-170 Clavinova Smart Piano. If you’re not familiar with the CSPs, check out my articles about the CSP-100 series and the now current CSP-200 series.

In short, the CSP pianos combine Yamaha’s Clavinova piano technology, learning features (score display and playback, stream lights) and basic auto-accompaniment into a single traditional home piano form factor. The CSPs eschew a complicated user interface, opting for a minimalist, two-button front panel: power OFF/ON button, FUNCTION button, and volume slider.

First and foremost, CSPs are Yamaha digital pianos, as Yamaha likes to say. In this post, I concentrate on the CSP-170 as a home piano. I bought the CSP-170 at a close-out price as Yamaha was clearing inventory when Series 200 deliveries began.

Appearance

I rarely discuss an instrument’s physical appearance in much depth as synth and arranger front panels are “seen one, seen ’em all.” The CSP-170, however, sits in our high-traffic dining room. You can’t miss it!

Yamaha CSP-170 Smart Piano (matte black)

Our CSP-170 is the matte black model. The matte finish is the best match for our contemporary house. The matte black model costs a bit less than the polished ebony — not really a concern.

The CSP-170 looks like the traditional spinet piano — the old family piano that we ditched just before moving out West. The CSP-170 has attractive clean lines and fits into the contemporary styling of our home. As a piece of furniture, it is constructed solidly and feels like a quality instrument. Definitely a step up from Arius.

I originally considered a P-515 “portable” digital piano and stand. When Yamaha announced close-out pricing, it made sense to step up to the CSP-100 series. A P-515 on its stand is not as physically attractive or formal as the CSP. The CSP cabinet allows for a better more powerful sound system than the P-515 as well.

CSP-170? Heck, yeah.

The CSP-170 piano samples and playability are on par with the P-515. The main pianos are the Yamaha CFX and Bösendorfer Imperial. I played them both during my piano quest and I still enjoy playing them today.

I prefer the CSP-170 sound system over the P-515. The CSP-170 has bi-amplified speakers: woofers in a downward facing speaker box and mid/high ports left and right at chest level. The P-515, like many portables, has bi-amplified upward firing speakers. The P-515 sounds brighter due to the direct sound from its speakers. The CSP-170 sound field is similar to a spinet; the sound is indirect and takes some of the edge off the CFX. My only knock on the sound system — auto-accompaniment lacks air and sparkle. You won’t hear snappy snares.

I should note that I also play MODX and Genos, both through studio monitors. Thus, I’m used to a crisper sound for auto-accompaniment and percussion.

The CSP-170 provides plenty of volume. I don’t practice at thundering volume and setting the volume slider somewhere near the middle is adequate.

I’ve been playing the CSP-170 for one month, mainly piano. It is so convenient to push the ON switch and play. I can sneak in short playing sessions while waiting for my spouse to get ready for our daily walk, etc. The minimalist user interface is not an issue for quick play as one can select one of the main voices (CFX, Bösendorfer, Suitcase Rhodes, Wurli) by holding the FUNCTION button and hitting the appropriate key. I keep a function cheat-sheet on top of the piano for reference.

Full functionality requires the Yamaha Smart Pianist app. The app is handy, but most times, I haven’t needed it. I’ve tried a few of the Smart Pianist features: stream lights, score display, song and score playback, and auto-accompaniment. I’ll have more to say about them in future posts. So far, my only knock against them is the rather poor written documentation. Yamaha provides the bare minimum and neglects to explain certain notable features (e.g., adaptive styles). The written documentation understates the advanced capabilities built into the CSPs and the Smart Pianist app!

Smart Pianist Piano Room lets you set the lid position, brilliance, Virtual Resonance Modeling (VRM) and more. Once you get the desired piano tone, save all the settings in a Registration for recall later.

NWX keyboard action

I suspect that the CSP-170 is the last instrument which Yamaha will make with the Natural Wood Escapement (NWX) action. If you browse the forums, you’ll see all kinds of comments about NWX, or this, or that. My advice is to go out and play a variety of brands and actions. Then choose. Ignore “action trolls.”

I find the NWX to be smooth with a weight letting me control the piano sound — to play in a nuanced way. (It might not work for you and that’s OK.) The NWX does not trash my hands unlike GH3X, GHC and, yes, the new GEX Montage M8X keyboard. When you try and test, be sure to play for an extended period of time. Then ask, “How do my hands feel?” NWX passed this test for me several times over.

Dealers provide a valuable service in this regard. It took me months and multiple playing sessions to arrive at my choice. Be sure to patronize the dealers who help you out even if the price is a little higher. They’ve earned it.

Summing up

Would I buy the CSP-170 again? At the close-out price ($3,600 USD), absolutely. The CSP-200 series models have a number of improvements (GrandTouch, more voices, more styles, both CFX and Bösendorfer binaural) at a higher price. If you try an NWX (maybe a P-515?) or a GH3X and you like it, there are still CSP-100 series pianos available at close-out pricing. It’s first come, first served, limited quantity only.

Yamaha would need to completely blow me away with the CLP-800 series in order to get me to upgrade. Seriously, I’m good.

Copyright © 2023 Paul J. Drongowski

Yamaha CSP-170 in the house!

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At long last, my Yamaha CSP-170 Smart Piano arrived!

Classic Pianos Bellevue

Before saying anything else, I want to give a shout-out to Classic Pianos in Bellevue, Washington. I got a friendly and welcoming reception when I visited their showroom in August during my piano quest. I like to support local dealers when possible and Classic Pianos left me with a very positive first impression. [They had to endure my banging around, too.]

Yamaha CSP-170 Smart Piano (matte black)

So, when I heard about close-out pricing on CSP-100 series pianos, I gave them a call. They checked out the situation with Yamaha and offered the reduced price on the Yamaha CSP-170B (matte black) model. The only catch was availability because they needed to place an order with Yamaha. Classic Pianos staff were helpful and courteous during the wait — even checking on the status of their order with Yamaha.

Classic Piano rolled in “white glove” delivery which I did not expect at the close-out price. CSP pianos are quite heavy and assembly would have been a real chunk for two 70 year-olds. Thus, I’m really grateful for the extra service. Martinson Piano Moving handled delivery and in-home set-up.

At this point, all is well. Thank you, Classic Pianos (Bellevue).

Why CSP-170?

Yeah, why? The CSP-170 is the “old” CSP-100 series, right?

If you read my reviews of the Yamaha P-515 and CLP-785, you’ll know that I like the NWX keyboard action and the CFX/Bösendorfer piano sounds. I would have loved to buy the CLP-785, but its price is above my target budget.

My biggest beef with the P-515 (and the CLP series, for that matter) is the relative paucity of secondary sounds. Once you’ve tasted Yamaha MODX or Genos, you know what Yamaha is capable of. The P-515 XG sounds are sufficient for playing back XG MIDI files, but the voices aren’t up to the same quality level as mid- to upper-range Yamaha arranger keyboards or synths.

When the CSP-100 series was first announced, they struck me as innovative, but price-y. The CSP-170 (and 150) secondary sounds are roughly the same as the PSR-SX700 arranger. The extra sounds pushed the initial CSP-170 price ($5,400 USD) above the somewhat comparable CLP-745 (as far as base piano and sound system are concerned.)

Yamaha announced and began shipping the CSP-200 series last Summer. The second generation CSPs have a larger secondary sound set and GrandTouch keyboards. Pricing with respect to CLP remains high due to the CSP’s extra features.

For whatever reason, CSP-100 series were (are?) overstocked. [You can still find close-out CSP-150 and CSP-170 pianos today.] Yamaha reduced the price of the CSP-170B (matte black) model to $3,600 USD. A P-515 package for home costs about $2,000. So, the $1,600 delta above the P-515 buys a very nice cabinet, a superior amplification system, auto-accompaniment, learning features (stream lights) and a wealth of high-quality secondary sounds. Buying a CSP-170 for $3,600 is a bit of a “no brainer”, if you don’t want or need quasi-portability.

As I mentioned, the only catch is availability and waiting time. In a recent earnings call with financial analysts, Yamaha admitted that they have inventory issues and are over-stocked in certain specific product categories (e.g., entry-level digital pianos). Some of the glut is pandemic-related; some excess inventory is due to a slowed Chinese economy. Yamaha may be shifting stock from far away, for all we know. My CSP-170 was manufactured (Indonesia) in November 2022. I’d love to know its history!

Here I am today, a happy camper. I’ll be posting my initial impressions as a new owner/player and will have more to say about the Yamaha Smart Pianist app. Please, stay tuned and thanks for reading.

Copyright © 2023 Paul J. Drongowski

Yamaha P-525 digital piano announced

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As predicted, the Yamaha portable digital piano line has a new flagship — the Yamaha P-525 — replacing the popular P-515.

Lucky for all of us, the price has not gone up. USA MAP is $1,600 USD ($2,000 MSRP). It is already appearing on retailer sites for pre-order.

The P-525 web page is up. Here are the improvements over the P-515 and a few extra highlights (for the impatient):

  • GrandTouch-S wooden (white) keys
  • Grand Expression Modeling
  • Registration memories
  • Bluetooth audio
  • USB to HOST (MIDI and audio)
  • Amplification: 2 x (20W + 6W)
  • Speakers: 2 x (Oval (12cm x 6 cm) + 2.5 cm (dome))
  • Sound Boost and adjustable EQ

A number of features carry over from the P-515: CFX and Bösendorfer Imperial featured pianos, binaural sampling (CFX only), VRM, and half damper pedal. The P-525 amplifiers got a small bump.

The big change is the GrandTouch-S keybed, replacing the NWX keybed. I really liked playing the P-515’s NWX. Here’s hoping that the P-525 has the same non-fatiguing action and key-to-sound connection. [I’m dying to try it.]

Giggers will truly welcome the registration memories and adjustable EQ. Now you’ll be able to store panel settings in the piano itself without resorting to the Yamaha Smart Pianist app. Nothing against Smart Pianist, but a tablet (or phone) is yet another thing to carry and set-up at the job.

The P-525 brought over the XG sound set and drum kits (480 voices and 18 drum/SFX kits). These are mainly used for MIDI file playback, but feel free to dip in. The P-525 adds four new effect types for specific voices (and cannot be selected by the Voice menu):

  • VCM EQ 501
  • CompDistortion
  • VintagePhaserStereo
  • StereoOverdrive

The new effect types bring the P-525 closer to CP88 territory although the P-525 still lacks several important stage piano features (zones, front panel gizmos to control effects in real time, etc., etc.)

The P-525 adds a few voices that make use of the new, voice-specific effect types:

  • Dance Grand (AP)
  • Old School Pf (AP)
  • Auto Pan EP (EP)
  • Dyno E.Piano (EP)

I noted inconsistencies in the MSB/LSB/PC numbers between the P-515 and P-525 (Data List PDF). I don’t know if these differences are significant. Perhaps Yamaha need to proofread the MIDI voice assignments? One PDF claims “1-128” numbering and the other PDF claims “0-127” numbering WRT program change numbers.

Also predicted, Yamaha have a new, portable triple pedal unit, the FC35. The FC35 plugs into the P-525 triple pedal port. The FC35 is compatible with other Yamaha digital pianos which implement the triple pedal port (e.g., DGX-670 and P-225). The FC35 retails for $100.

I’m going to call it a night and will take a close look at the Owner’s Manual tomorrow. Start browsing for deals on the P-515, if the 525 doesn’t float your boat!

Update (after a good night’s sleep)

I didn’t catch it last night, but the P-525 has an updated speaker box. Yamaha claim:

We also made significant improvements to the speaker boxes. Flared bass reflex ports and proprietary sound-absorbing tubes substantially reduce wind noise, vibration noise, and other excess noise, which helps to deliver a higher quality of sound.

The P-525 is also the first digital piano equipped with an FIR filter, which makes fine adjustments to the phase of the sound. This allows your audience to hear a naturally pleasing sound as you play.

I don’t think they’re lyin’ because I have not seen the FIR filter touted in other Yamaha digital piano blurbs.

The FIR filter is a digital crossover between the mid-range woofer and the tweeter. I haven’t reviewed it yet, but I’ve been playing through a Yamaha Stagepas 100BTR, which features a digital FIR crossover filter. It’s good stuff.

The P-525 adopts the registration memory scheme which should be familiar to Yamaha arranger people. The software engineers overloaded the “Piano Room” button with a REGIST operation, i.e., press and hold the button for registration operations. Use the arrow buttons to navigate to a bank, then press a (voice) button to select a registration within a bank. The bad news here is holding the REGIST button while hitting a second button to execute the selection. This would be an awkward gesture if you’re trying to change registration while playing.

The P-525 has a 3-band Master EQ (low, mid and high). You can select from three EQ presets or create your own USER setting. The Master EQ setting is saved in a registration along with a bunch of other important panel settings. Check the manual.

There is only one thing to bust Yamaha’s chops. The feature overview video demo claims “542 attractive voices.” The number is incorrect: 44 panel voices plus 480 XG voices is 524. Further, the 480 XG voices are really intended for MIDI file playback. There are some usable XG voices, but the entire lot of them smells like the 1990s. I laud the new AP/EP voices (and DSP effects), but C’mon man!

I have played the P-515 several times since my initial review. Each time, the P-515 left me favorably impressed. If the GrandTouch-S action is non-fatiguing and playable, the P-525 should be everybody’s serious candidate. You will get most of the benefits of a full-blown CLP in a quasi-portable package — $2,000 USD (street) for a slab, stand, bench and pedal unit. That’s excellent value.

Copyright © 2023 Paul J. Drongowski

Yamaha P-525 on the way

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Most eyes are on the Yamaha Montage M series leak. However, the list of new Yamaha products revealed on Yamaha Musicians Forum includes “P-525B” and “P-525WH”, indicating a successor to the P-515 digital piano. (The P-515 was released in 2018.)

Further evidence popped up on a Yamaha regional site. The digital piano accessories page shows the L-515 stand and refers to an “P-525” as well as “P-515”. This situation is not unlike the pre-announcement days of the CK88. “Hey, look, there’s a music rest for the unannounced CK88!”

Should we expect a Yamaha P-525? I think so!

The new P-225 and P-145 models each received matching stands: L-200 and L-100, respectively. The P-525 will use the same old stand as P-515. Therefore, I don’t anticipate any big change in the P-5×5 form factor.

Given the modest bump in model name, I wouldn’t expect much more than a functional spiff (i,e., a small refresh). Maybe a few more voices? Maybe a few more rhythm patterns? I wouldn’t mind “Grand Expression,” but I’m not holding my breath.

We’re coming up on the September/October triple-witching hour: new product roll-outs, new price lists, and “Back to School”. If you’ve worked in electronics retail, you know there are three selling seasons in North America: “Back to School”, holiday, and “Dads and Grads”. We’re about one month into the Back to School season.

I stopped into Guitar Center last weekend to try a P-225 (no luck). I saw the same deep stacks of P-45 and P-125 digital pianos. Big retail stores are over-stocked on some models and I expect to see price reductions or promotions for deprecated products in the near future. Maybe you can pick up a digital piano at a blow out price while the new models trickle in?

There are rumors that Roland will try to spoil the Montage M announcement with a major Fantom update. Yamaha never like to pre-announce, so the Montage announcement in July 2023 was a big deal. Was Yamaha trying to spoil Fantom sales? Watch these two daikaiju duke it out!

Update: Accessorize!

Don’t forget to accessorize!

Yamaha will be introducing a new triple pedal unit, the FC35 — a stand-alone unit which you can throw into a (large) gig bag. The FC35 will be compatible with models having the 6-pin DIN LP-1 connector: DGX-670, P-121, P-125, P-223, P-225, P-515, P-525 and P-S500.

New Yamaha digital piano accessories (Sept 2023)

Need a keyboard gig bag? The new SC-KB851 will handle P-35, P-45, P-115, P-125, P-142, P-145, P-223 and P-225. Availability may be limited by region.

Copyright © 2023 Paul J. Drongowski